<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1321</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	11/6/99 7:59:50 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Saturday, November 6 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1321<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Wild Blue Claims<BR>
Re: Justice and Criminal vs Civil<BR>
Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea<BR>
Re: Cons On Ice Scenario <BR>
Re: Evolution and the drifting generation ship<BR>
Re: Evolution and the drifting generation ship<BR>
Re: Evolution and the drifting generation ship <BR>
Re: Marc Miller's new website for Traveller<BR>
Re: Border Guards<BR>
The Generation Ship in SF (was Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea)<BR>
Re: The Generation Ship in SF (was Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea) <BR>
Re: Evolution and the drifting generation ship<BR>
Re: Evolution and the drifting generation ship <BR>
Re: Hopefully I'm back...<BR>
Re: Hopefully I'm back...<BR>
Re: Violent Outlet (Was A Day of Peace)<BR>
Re: Hopefully I'm back...<BR>
The Meaning of Words (Re: Violent Outlet (Was Re: A Day of Peace))<BR>
Re LowBerths<BR>
Re: Hopefully I'm back...<BR>
Re: Evolution and the drifting generation ship<BR>
Re: heavy cavalry<BR>
Re: Islamic Observances in Interstellar Space (Was: Re: [OT] Cultural Differences)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:34:59 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Wild Blue Claims<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 6 Nov 1999 Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Trav: Has politics corrupted Imperial Universities like it has American <BR>
> (and I assume Anzac and European) ones?<BR>
<BR>
No, that's impossible because of the free market economy and concommitant<BR>
environment of free speech in the 3I, so that ideology literally CAN'T<BR>
tamper with the truth.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
This is getting hard to keep doing.  People here at Harvard really talk<BR>
like this, though.  What the hell am I supposed to do?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:39:28 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Justice and Criminal vs Civil<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 6 Nov 1999 Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> IMO - NO. I believe it's hardwired in our monkey brains to hate/fear anything <BR>
> that's different from us, for survival reasons. It's now an (usually) <BR>
> unnecessary tool that takes training to overcome...<BR>
<BR>
However, this training requires the investment of resources that could<BR>
otherwise be put into economic development or military and technological<BR>
research, so societies that practice it will die out.  Sad, but it's<BR>
true!!!<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 14:43:25 -0500<BR>
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea<BR>
<BR>
At 03:51 PM 11/5/99 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>stories. Heinlein's "Orphans of the Sky" has a generation ship that has<BR>
<BR>
This is great, though it suffers from the <1950s writers didn't know<BR>
enough about science> syndrome.<BR>
<BR>
>decides to break the taboos and go exploring. He climbs the monutains<BR>
>and finds that they touch the sky! Turns out the "valley" is the inside<BR>
>of a generation ship. I can't recall why the passengers were handled<BR>
<BR>
I remember this - no author pops to mind though. Strikes me as something<BR>
I would've read in "Best of Astounding" or "The <whatever> Award Winners<BR>
or 1980"<BR>
<BR>
I also have to bring up  C. J. Cherryh, Foreigner, Invader, Inheritor.<BR>
While these are not generation ships they misjumped and went on maneuver<BR>
drive to the closest G star. I don't think I'm giving anything about the<BR>
books away when I say how the Pilot's Guild became a hereditary ruling<BR>
class, the colonists rebelled, and a whole mess developed. (Ending up<BR>
in people floating down from the sky on petals!).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning / banging my head<BR>
No time for mourning / ain't got no time  -- Creed<BR>
Rob Brady			  robb at datatone dot com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 14:51:48 -0500<BR>
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cons On Ice Scenario <BR>
<BR>
At 06:53 PM 11/5/99 -0800, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> >From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
><BR>
> >the taboos and go exploring. He climbs the monutains<BR>
> >and finds that they touch the sky! Turns out the<BR>
> >"valley" is the inside of a generation ship. I can't<BR>
><BR>
>That was done in a Star Trek episode.  The title was<BR>
>something like, For the World is Hollow and I Have<BR>
>Touched the Sky.  McCoy got the girl, as I recall.<BR>
That's where I read it: James Blish did a bunch of books based<BR>
on ST episodes. Much better than TV, in my humble opinion.<BR>
(Of course this was James Blish, not Joe Schmoe.)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
To govern is to correct. If you set an example by being correct,<BR>
who would dare to remain incorrect?  -- Confucius<BR>
Rob Brady                               robb at datatone dot com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 15:05:20 -0500<BR>
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Evolution and the drifting generation ship<BR>
<BR>
At 07:47 AM 11/6/99 +0000, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
>At 09:49 PM 11/5/1999 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
> >The hydroponics has gone so far out of control to have formed a soil layer<BR>
> >on the deck and the cold sleep for the wild life failed long enough ago to<BR>
> >have allowed them to have evolved into new species (SP?)<BR>
><BR>
>Where'd the hydroponics tanks get the dirt?  Go for broke here!  Make it a<BR>
>generation ship, with complete ecosystems in place.<BR>
<BR>
I thought when I read this that when the plants went untended, parts fell off<BR>
onto the floor. As long as the hydroponics keep working you are building up<BR>
a nice compost layer on the floor. Seeds drop off the untended plants. A<BR>
tube containing roots breaks and some of the spill onto the compost (along<BR>
with the remaining nutrient fluids). Anyway, thriving ecosystem on the<BR>
floor, and as I understand it, plants that never grew near one another on<BR>
the source world.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Tardy robber.. Order By Brat.. Tardy Bob ERR.. Retry bad Rob.. Retro by bard<BR>
Robert Brady                                        robb at datatone dot com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:15:19 -0800<BR>
From: "Thing" <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Evolution and the drifting generation ship<BR>
<BR>
On Saturday, November 06, 1999 12:05 PM<BR>
Rob Brady said,<BR>
<BR>
> I thought when I read this that when the plants went untended, parts fell<BR>
off<BR>
> onto the floor. As long as the hydroponics keep working you are building<BR>
up<BR>
> a nice compost layer on the floor. Seeds drop off the untended plants. A<BR>
> tube containing roots breaks and some of the spill onto the compost (along<BR>
> with the remaining nutrient fluids). Anyway, thriving ecosystem on the<BR>
> floor, and as I understand it, plants that never grew near one another on<BR>
> the source world.<BR>
<BR>
The problem I see is that as the compost layer builds up more and more<BR>
nutrients will be leaving the hydroponics system as the plants aren't being<BR>
recycled into the system and the crew isn't eating and generating waste to<BR>
be recycled.  The hydroponics system would have to have a huge stockpile of<BR>
nutrients available to allow a large amount of matter to leave the system<BR>
and form soil.  If the nutrients drop too low the hydroponics system would<BR>
just fail.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
=====<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 15:28:15 -0500<BR>
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Evolution and the drifting generation ship <BR>
<BR>
> On Saturday, November 06, 1999 12:05 PM<BR>
> Rob Brady said,<BR>
> <BR>
> > I thought when I read this that when the plants went untended, parts fell<BR>
> off<BR>
> > onto the floor. As long as the hydroponics keep working you are building<BR>
> up<BR>
> > a nice compost layer on the floor. Seeds drop off the untended plants. A<BR>
> > tube containing roots breaks and some of the spill onto the compost (along<BR>
> > with the remaining nutrient fluids). Anyway, thriving ecosystem on the<BR>
> > floor, and as I understand it, plants that never grew near one another on<BR>
> > the source world.<BR>
> <BR>
> The problem I see is that as the compost layer builds up more and more<BR>
> nutrients will be leaving the hydroponics system as the plants aren't being<BR>
> recycled into the system and the crew isn't eating and generating waste to<BR>
> be recycled.  The hydroponics system would have to have a huge stockpile of<BR>
> nutrients available to allow a large amount of matter to leave the system<BR>
> and form soil.  If the nutrients drop too low the hydroponics system would<BR>
> just fail.<BR>
<BR>
Assume critters filling the ecological niches of roaches & rats somehow got on board and forage in the crops growing on the floor now.  <grin><BR>
<BR>
Keven<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
tc++ tm+ tn+ t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure<BR>
                                                     In Reavers' Deep<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 15:42:02 -0500<BR>
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's new website for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 09:12 PM 11/5/99 -0500, Sword Worlder wrote:<BR>
>I asked Marc and he said it was alright to begin publicizing the new site.<BR>
>He has quite a bit of the work completed and I'm sure he would welcome<BR>
>feedback on what he is doing.  I for one would be interested to hear the<BR>
>feedback and discussion happen right here on the TML, unless you think that<BR>
>would needlessly clog the list with on-topic posts ;-)<BR>
><BR>
>http://members.aol.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
The pages are very netscape unfriendly. Looking with internet explorer I<BR>
see what looks like from the comment <!--LEFT COLUMN--> to<BR>
<!--RIGHT COLUMN-->. I don't see these in netscape. I didn't even look at<BR>
the page w/ lynx.<BR>
<BR>
I'd be willing to help you look into this, but I must admit to being a<BR>
little flummoxed as to why <map> is not working in netscape.<BR>
[My spell checker understands flummoxed, but not imperium. Go figya.]<BR>
<BR>
The onMouseOver()s work in netscape, but the don't work quite as well in<BR>
IE -> IE always seems to show the underlying href.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rob Brady 685B57            Computer Geek, 4 terms<BR>
Computer-4, Electronic-1, Streetwise-1<BR>
"Don't even ask about quirks!"     robb at datatone dot com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 13:37:19 -0600<BR>
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Border Guards<BR>
<BR>
On 11/04/99 at 12:39 PM,  Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Aha!  I just realized how this works out.  At low LL, you pay the<BR>
>cops to get involved.  At high LL, you pay them to leave you alone.<BR>
>:)<BR>
<BR>
I'm behind reading my mail, so this may have already been mentioned,<BR>
but....<BR>
<BR>
What you're saying is you have two factors, the levels of Law and of<BR>
Corruption.  Put one on one axis and the other on the other...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 High | B                      C<BR>
      |<BR>
      |<BR>
 Law  |<BR>
      |<BR>
      |<BR>
      |<BR>
      |<BR>
      |  A                     D<BR>
  Low |______________________________<BR>
      Low                         High<BR>
                  Corruption<BR>
<BR>
  A = Few laws or law officers, but the police/sherrif/judges are<BR>
      generally an honest and honorable.  I many cases, the judges<BR>
      and police work with the "spirit of the law" rather than<BR>
      depending on the letter.  An attempted bribe would be<BR>
      considered insulting and dealt with harshly.  The "honest<BR>
      west" of fiction.<BR>
      <BR>
  B = There are laws and regulations for almost everything, and they<BR>
      are enforced strictly.  Bribes attempts are dealt with harshly<BR>
      by the almost uniformly honest legal system.  This could be<BR>
      anything from a world like "Repent Hariquin, Said the Tick<BR>
      Tock Man", to an idealized totalitarian state.<BR>
      <BR>
  C = Again, laws and regulations for almost everthing, but the<BR>
      police and courts are more than willing to ignore<BR>
      *anything*...for a price.  In fact if you don't attempt to<BR>
      bribe an offical you are probably going to be dealt with very<BR>
      harshly.  You better hope you don't have enemies that can<BR>
      afford to outspend you or you will have the authorities out to<BR>
      get you, too.  The extreme would be like the movie "Brazil" or<BR>
      maybe "Max Headroom"...or a more realistic totalitarian state.<BR>
      <BR>
  D = There are few laws or regulations on the books, but the<BR>
      "authorities" will shake you down for bribes and payoffs on<BR>
      trumpped up charges anyway.  They are probably especially<BR>
      rough on outsiders and travellers.  You have to worry about<BR>
      these thugs staying bought, too.  Something like a Clint<BR>
      Eastwood western, certain real third world countries. or<BR>
      (mostly fictional) backwater county govenments in the rural<BR>
      American south.<BR>
      <BR>
Is there something like this in WBH?<BR>
<BR>
Eris      <BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 17:59:03 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: The Generation Ship in SF (was Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea)<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:16:48 -0500 (EST), shadow@krypton.rain.com<BR>
(Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I'd suggest checking out a few of the "classic" generation ship<BR>
>stories. Heinlein's "Orphans of the Sky" has a generation ship that has<BR>
<BR>
[...]<BR>
<BR>
>Then there's Brian Aldiss's "Starship" where we have another generation<BR>
>ship where things have gone badly wrong. Though it takes a while to<BR>
<BR>
[...]<BR>
<BR>
>Oh yeah, I knew there was at least one more! Delany's "The Ballad of<BR>
>Beta 2" (this and "Babel-17" are Delany books for people who don't like<BR>
<BR>
[...]<BR>
<BR>
>There's another one that I can't recall the author of. It's got a<BR>
>pseudo Aztec culture living in a mountain valley. And then our hero<BR>
>decides to break the taboos and go exploring. He climbs the monutains<BR>
>and finds that they touch the sky! Turns out the "valley" is the inside<BR>
>of a generation ship. I can't recall why the passengers were handled<BR>
>that way. <BR>
<BR>
Another one, a fairly easy read, and certainly not up with the<BR>
Grand Masters of the genre, would be the Star Trek novel<BR>
_The_Galactic_Whirlpool_ by David Gerrold (yes, he of the<BR>
tribbles).  Pre-warp generation ship, suffers mutiny, fairly<BR>
predictable degradation, et cetera.  Enter the Enterprise,<BR>
originally on an unrelated mission, et cetera...<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 18:07:30 -0500<BR>
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Generation Ship in SF (was Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea) <BR>
<BR>
> Another one, a fairly easy read, and certainly not up with the<BR>
> Grand Masters of the genre, would be the Star Trek novel<BR>
> _The_Galactic_Whirlpool_ by David Gerrold (yes, he of the<BR>
> tribbles).  Pre-warp generation ship, suffers mutiny, fairly<BR>
> predictable degradation, et cetera.  Enter the Enterprise,<BR>
> originally on an unrelated mission, et cetera...<BR>
<BR>
David Gerrold does some pretty decent Star Trek stuff, but for a couple good <BR>
reads, try his 'Star Wolf' novels ('Voyage of the Star Wolf', 'The Middle Of <BR>
Nowhere'), or the War Against the Chtorr series.  I wish he'd get the lead <BR>
out and write Book 5 of the WAtC series already.  I'm doing some serious <BR>
jonesing.<BR>
<BR>
Keven<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
tc++ tm+ tn+ t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure<BR>
                                                     In Reavers' Deep<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 14:43:40<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Evolution and the drifting generation ship<BR>
<BR>
At 03:05 PM 11/6/1999 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>At 07:47 AM 11/6/99 +0000, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>Where'd the hydroponics tanks get the dirt?  Go for broke here!  Make it a<BR>
>>generation ship, with complete ecosystems in place.<BR>
><BR>
>I thought when I read this that when the plants went untended, parts fell<BR>
>off onto the floor. As long as the hydroponics keep working you are building <BR>
>up a nice compost layer on the floor.<BR>
<BR>
Problem: Lake of an effective nitrogen cycle.  In an echo of the great<BR>
Vilani BBQ debate, there just would be enough base level nutrients avalible<BR>
to really support a robust ecology.  It's why you let fields lie fallow,<BR>
soil needs to regenerate itself, which is a hideously complex and<BR>
precariously balanced act.  See "Dust Bowl"  Also, hydroponics tanks will<BR>
be pretty focussed on things that we can eat, which tend to not be that<BR>
great (after milenia of tampering) at adapting.<BR>
<BR>
An interesting alternative my be to have various fungi take over the tanks,<BR>
and from there run rampant.  Ever see "Journey to the Center of the Earth"?<BR>
 Mushrooms make an excellent food source, and a great source for<BR>
interesting drugs and poisons.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TravGeekCode: <BR>
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 14:47:01<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Evolution and the drifting generation ship <BR>
<BR>
At 03:28 PM 11/6/1999 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Assume critters filling the ecological niches of roaches & rats somehow got <BR>
>on board and forage in the crops growing on the floor now.  <grin><BR>
<BR>
That's shows great restraint on the part of the scavengers, since you'd<BR>
have to make sure that they ate and left their droppings in the same place<BR>
(exceedingly rare behavior outside of large predators), and didn't<BR>
experience a population explosion that resulted in all of the available<BR>
food plants being eating in a very short period.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 14:48:52<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hopefully I'm back...<BR>
<BR>
At 10:06 AM 11/6/1999 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Anyway, if anyone had posted anything to the TML directed at me from about<BR>
>the 2nd or so, please resend to me directly at jdegraff@pacbell.net.<BR>
<BR>
Good.  He didn't see the.. discussion of last week.<BR>
<BR>
Remember: we swore a blood oath never to reveal what transpired.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 14:53:10<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hopefully I'm back...<BR>
<BR>
At 10:06 AM 11/6/1999 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>In other news, in case it didn't post, check out my "News" section for a<BR>
>"Starports" preview shot that I did specifically for the TML, and I also<BR>
>have an un-textured preview 3-view of the Fiery, which I just finished<BR>
>modeling yesterday.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
OOOOOoooooohhhhh....  Aaaaaahhhhh.....<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 14:59:30<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Violent Outlet (Was A Day of Peace)<BR>
<BR>
At 05:43 PM 11/6/1999 GMT, you wrote:<BR>
>"Can I bum a fag?"<BR>
>British: Could I trouble you for a cigarette?<BR>
>American: Could you direct me to the "Blue Oyster Bar"? :-)<BR>
<BR>
I think Craig and I had an advantage, being raised bi-lingual.  :)<BR>
<BR>
We absorbed a great deal of Brit English from both our father and endless,<BR>
parentally endorsed, nights of Monty Python's Flying Circus on channel 9.<BR>
<BR>
"They mean to win Wimbledon!"<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 15:16:02 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Hopefully I'm back...<BR>
<BR>
ROFL!!  Ohh, wanna' play it that way, eh?  ;)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Saturday, November 06, 1999 3:13 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Hopefully I'm back...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 10:06 AM 11/6/1999 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Anyway, if anyone had posted anything to the TML directed at me from about<BR>
>>the 2nd or so, please resend to me directly at jdegraff@pacbell.net.<BR>
><BR>
>Good.  He didn't see the.. discussion of last week.<BR>
><BR>
>Remember: we swore a blood oath never to reveal what transpired.<BR>
>--<BR>
><BR>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
><BR>
>TML Great Old One<BR>
>Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
>Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 17:48:43 -0600<BR>
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: The Meaning of Words (Re: Violent Outlet (Was Re: A Day of Peace))<BR>
<BR>
On 11/04/99 at 11:44 PM,  Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>"Could I have a napkin, please" in a restaraunt, for example. :-)<BR>
<BR>
>... would get you a (table) napkin. A diaper in the UK is a nappy.<BR>
>The derivation of nappy is from napkin but nappy is always (in my<BR>
>experience, and I have 2 kids) used. <BR>
<BR>
When I was eight, my parents, grandparents and I were at some office<BR>
or other on a Saturday afternoon.  We had just finished eating<BR>
lunch, fried chicken, and my mother had been complaining about<BR>
having grease on her hands and no napkin to clean them.  I was<BR>
bored, getting restless, and had to use the rest room.  I sneaked<BR>
out.<BR>
<BR>
A little exploring through the mostly empty building and I found the<BR>
Men's room, but it was locked and I was getting desperate...I tried<BR>
the Ladies.  It wasn't locked, I'd been told to *never* go into the<BR>
Ladies room, but I was *really* getting desperate, so with great<BR>
trepidation I went in.<BR>
<BR>
After taking care of urgent business, I took the opportunity to look<BR>
around.  It was much nicer than a Men's room.  There was even a<BR>
couch, though why anyone would want to sit around a restroom was<BR>
beyond me.  IAC, and much to my surprise, there was a vending<BR>
machine offering "Sanitary Napkins" for a dime.  It made sense.  Men<BR>
would just use the paper towels, but women were neat and selling<BR>
napkins in a ladies room seemed appropriate.<BR>
<BR>
I had a dime.  It seemed like a lot for a napkin, I paid that much<BR>
for a comic book, and there was a new Sgt Rock out I wanted, but I<BR>
was going to be in trouble for sneaking out and figured this might<BR>
get me off the hook...so I inserted my dime.<BR>
<BR>
Out popped a package, large for a napkin I thought, but maybe it was<BR>
a large cloth napkin and that's why it cost a dime. It came in a<BR>
paper wrapper, and that made sense too.  After all, sanitary means<BR>
clean.<BR>
<BR>
I proudly returned to the office and presented my Mother with my<BR>
present saying, "Here, Mom!  You said you needed one of these."<BR>
<BR>
A great uproar ensued!  I was sent out to wait in the car with<BR>
absolutely no idea why all the men were laughing and the women were<BR>
redfaced and embarrassed.<BR>
<BR>
I don't suppose anyone would care to explain it to me?<BR>
<BR>
Anonymous<BR>
<BR>
(like you can't just read my sig line! ;)<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:42:54 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re LowBerths<BR>
<BR>
> They also tend to travel<BR>
>> via low berth aboard naval craft a lot...<BR>
><BR>
>Doesn't that tend to use them up rather quickly, give typical low berth<BR>
>revival rolls?<BR>
<BR>
I use MT, where it is MUCH more survivable:<BR>
	7+ to have no mishap, DM+3 average (Medical 2 and Edu 5-9), DM+4 for<BR>
a 4+ needed, and it specifies in the task that the mishap is always only 2d...<BR>
cautious.reduces it to 3+. 1 in 36 chance of injury, rolled as following:<BR>
1	2: Reroll this table (So doesn't count)<BR>
15/35	3-6: 1d6 wounds<BR>
18/35	7-10: 2d wounds; at -2 dex for 1d weeks<BR>
3/35	11-14:3d permanent wounds<BR>
<BR>
chances of death are very slim, since wounds means attribute applied<BR>
points, not hits (each hit being 1d wounds).<BR>
<BR>
3/35*1/36=1/35*1/12=1/(35*12)=1/(350+70)=1/420 chance of attribute loss of<BR>
a permanent nature, assuming cautious docs. assuming  competent,<BR>
non-cautious medics, it's 1/105 chance.... so, under MT, it'll only kill<BR>
the old, the weak, or the foolish (wo don't have decent docs...) or<BR>
seriously unlucky.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>[1] If you don't get the reference find a Greek alphabet table and look<BR>
>at a captial chi. :-)<BR>
><BR>
looks like an X to me...      (from memory).<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 19:30:21 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Hopefully I'm back...<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 10:06 AM 11/6/1999 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Anyway, if anyone had posted anything to the TML directed at me from about<BR>
> >the 2nd or so, please resend to me directly at jdegraff@pacbell.net.<BR>
> <BR>
> Good.  He didn't see the.. discussion of last week.<BR>
> <BR>
> Remember: we swore a blood oath never to reveal what transpired.<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget, Doug; you were responsible for deleting the information<BR>
from the TML digest archives.  I trust that you were successful....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 20:00:40 -0600<BR>
From: Shimmergloom <shimmer@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Evolution and the drifting generation ship<BR>
<BR>
So, it would probably work better if I set up the ship to have been built as an<BR>
ark in space and just got lost on the way to its new home?<BR>
- -------------------------<BR>
"How much XP do we get if we join the bandits?"<BR>
<BR>
shimmer@mhtc.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:34:46 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: heavy cavalry<BR>
<BR>
> >I can't comment on "heavy cavalry", since what that means to *me* is<BR>
> >knoghts in armor which are obsolete by this time.<BR>
><BR>
>   The UK fielded units that they (& other Euro professionals) would<BR>
> have called heavy cavalry, although they didn't try body armour like<BR>
> the French cuirassiers.<BR>
<BR>
Heavy cavalry just means they have big horses (and usually big men ),<BR>
designed to charge into battle and use their impact against a holding<BR>
target. Whether the rider or mount is armoured is irrelevant<BR>
<BR>
Light cavalry are designed for scouting and harrassing duties, including<BR>
mounted missile-fire, and are not normally expected to charge home against<BR>
enemy troops<BR>
<BR>
In WRG rules, if the mount or rider has significant armour they are referred<BR>
to as extra-heavy cavalry, and  if in full plate, super-heavy cavalry<BR>
 those aren't the exact definitions, but they give the idea. )<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 03:58:09 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Islamic Observances in Interstellar Space (Was: Re: [OT] Cultural Differences)<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:32:05 -0700, "Legate Legion"<BR>
<legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    OBTrav:  What would be the food & drink restrictions in the 3I?<BR>
<BR>
Are K'kree kosher?   ;-)<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
<BR>
"If a country is worth living in, it is worth fighting for."   -Manning Coles<BR>
<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
GCS V 3.12 d- s:+: a- C+++ UH++$ P-- L+ E-- W++ N++ o-- K- w++++(---)$ !O M-- V-<BR>
PS-- PE++ Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X+ R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D++ G e+ h--- r+++ y+++<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1321<BR>
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